I didn't read everything you said on the O-board about the gay marriage subject yet a good part of the thread related to it. The discussion there is really emotive. And honestly, if you are considered having "hate speech" what about everyone around you about you? It is all the time the same with the ones acting or thinking differently of the others.
Honestly, we don't have a lot this kind of discussion in my country. It seems a long time ago that it is something accepted and usual. Probably, if I spoke at gay people they would say other things. It's no so easy and so simple. But gay marriage, adoption are easily shared and spoken. Gay couple works as foster family.
I read the really well articulated article of a gay man being against marriage for gay you put on the thread. We could feel in his words where he is emotionally in his life. We see very well where his choice is coming from: his personal life. I really don't agree with his viewpoint for many reasons but I'm able to understand where he is emotionally and rationally. His viewpoint is really well expressed; it does make sense. I'm able to respect the point even if I don't share it.
When we are emotionally taken in a subject, not enough able to have a distance, it is what it looks like. In this particular subject, I'm able to have a distance, in another one, I wouldn't. We, everyone, have our own turmoil.
Post by Belteshazzar on Sept 20, 2013 21:55:15 GMT -5
Yeah, well, all I ever asked for was tolerance for diversity of opinion and to not be demonized/ostracized for mine.
Apparently Nicole can't differentiate between having a different opinion and being some kind of a Nazi. Which shows how radical her own position is....
And apparently SP.com can't tolerate people like me, expressing views against the status quo. Which is lame and wrong, without question.
The whole thing has really made me re-think my loyalty to the band as a fan. It sucks because I've been a huge fan for a long time. But now, I am labeled as not good enough. I've gone from being a passionate fan to being luke-warm at best. How can I be in to something with my whole heart, which rejects me? Thanks Nicole/Sp.com. Great contributions.
I would say it is exactly there real love begins. It's easy to love when everything is good and kind between people. We agree on everything. When we totally disagree on an aspect or another, we question, and it is totally normal, our affiliation. We ask ourselves the real question. We see the persons differently and we wonder if we want to continue with them. Something changed, you cannot continue in the same way because it is ourselves we are threatened. And we are there, in a lukewarm situation. Yet, to stay there, in this emotion, we are also threatening ourselves. The lukewarmness isn't the best way to live fully our lives. What to do? For me, the best way, it is always that I'm doing in my life, is to clear the situation with the person involved. It has the merit that we both feel good after. Everyone says what we have on heart. After, we can decide or not to continue but with a better feeling in us. And sometimes it contributes to deepen our relationship. If this situation is about Nicole, why don't you speak her of your feeling? She seems someone reachable. It would be what I would try myself. If you don't want do this, you could also try by the forum itself with a new identity. If she reads the forum, you could address the situation by this mean starting a thread on free speech for example. At least, you could liberate your own soul and begin at new. With her or not. And you'll be in better condition to decide if you want continue with them. Does it make sense for you?
Post by Belteshazzar on Sept 21, 2013 9:24:29 GMT -5
Yeah. You are right.
I have had thoughts about all of this before, but....I just don't know how much I want to engage it any further....
Part of it is I'm afraid that if I talk to Nicole about it, it will go very badly and it will then give me that much more of a reason to be angry/upset with her and therefore emotionally distance me even further from a band that I love.
And actually - I DID talk to Nicole about it. Saeed (HotoriousDick) is in communication with her, and me and him were talking about the situation when I was originally banned directly by Nicole back in 2011. He arranged for me to talk with her about it through Facebook. She seemed to maybe expect an apology or something. I did apologize that she was offended, but I didn't apologize for my views. I said a lot of sincere, heart-felt things though. She never responded. Being ignored is almost as bad as being verbally condemned.
The truth is, I don't hate Nicole. I think she's a very nice person and I'm sure I could get along with her in a lot of ways. I am tolerant of people like her. But I feel like she is not tolerant of me.
Maybe there is some misunderstanding in all of this. There very well could be. But at this point, I'm not dealing directly with Nicole anymore, I'm dealing with the admins/mods on SP.com who are trying to honor what they think are Nicole's wishes, and also who probably just don't like me around anyway. When I was let back on the board, Nicole was made aware of the situation and from what I understand seemed okay with it, but I was put kind of under a restraining order to not talk about that certain political topic, or if I did, to be very careful. Eventually it was talked about and I was respectful to people. But people of course still got offended and complained and eventually I was banned again because they said I was told not to talk about it. So...the admins/mods on the board were also being really unclear to me about the whole situation.
Either way, it's wrong that I be censored the way I was and am now being. I've tried to get along with everyone there while still being true to myself. The simple fact is, they just don't want me around because I don't fit the mold.
The irony of the situation is that SP, to me, always represented not fitting in the mold. It represented diversity of viewpoints and tolerance for them. Well, here I am - someone with a different viewpoint from the rest of the community, who has loved the band intensely - now being rejected.
I read you and say to myself Wow, how much I missed things happening behind. I'm really sad to hear your story and I understand your reflection about the band. If I was closer of you at this time, probably I would have act differently.
I feel the same than you, SP represented not fitting in the mold. Billy said it very often and represented it also being there to challenge. But, Daniel, don't you see it like a challenge for you? Aren't you able to love them better and to challenge them on their own values?
I read that you have a really positive view about Nicole yet you see in her something where perhaps she has something to improve. I believe it is something in your hands. You have to decide if you care enough about the band and the human beings in this band to give them your honest view as you did already. Chapeau (thumbs up), I'm impressed that you spoke to Nicole and that the mods did a better job that I thought they did. Yet maybe everyone could do a better one.
I mean, you, Saeed, Nicole? You're not the less respectful of the crowd. It's a shame if you aren't able to find an arrangement.
And finally, how can you say that you have a different viewpoint of the rest of the community? Do you know the opinion of the rest of community? You know the one of those speaking not the one of those non speaking. And you may have a different viewpoint on this matter but only on this matter and not on all the rest. It's not a reason to break all the relationship.
Post by shadowmaker on Sept 21, 2013 10:14:20 GMT -5
Not fitting the mold would also be not casting judgments upon others since that's what many do. Not saying the community does, just the molded people in general. Lol @ molded
Aside from this little conflict of interest from you & Nicole, I'msure there are other interests/views you both could discuss with each other and not only that teach each other from having different views. Doesn't mean you are to be best friends, just the respect at a human level that no one is perfect. I don't agree with you at times Daniel, but I respect you enough to listen to you, appreciate you as a friend who listens and through all the crap we still get along. So, there is the possibility that you and Nicole can work past this.
I think Daniel should not be ostracized for his beliefs...he has every right to be against whatever it is he wants...and he should be allowed to voice his opinion on it, the way other voice their opinions on the things they believe in...I don't ever recall Daniel being disrespectful towards others unless ganged up on...more and more SP is fitting the mold, because diversity is so commonplace nowadays..Daniel is the one not fitting the mold in my opinion and I am glad he stands up for what he believes in...it is his life, he should be able to be for or against whatever he wants and explain to others why without getting picked on...who cares if he is against gay marriage??? why does that matter so much to Nicole or anyone else???...it is like one person liking a chocolate doughnut and one not...same difference....we don't all have to be alike in every thought...he should be accepted...but instead they are doing to him exactly what the gays are fighting for...acceptance
Post by shadowmaker on Sept 24, 2013 11:03:21 GMT -5
Exactly! A form of controlling. I tend to run in a different direction when I sense a form of control that goes against my belief/view. Doesn't mean you or I can't hear the other person out, but if it's going to cause anger and lashing out on one another then it's wise to take a step back and try again later. Preaching love & peace, and yet being hateful towards another for their belief is very fucked up! Excuse my words, but that is A truth. It's flat out fucked up
Post by Belteshazzar on Sept 24, 2013 23:02:06 GMT -5
Thanks guys for your support and acceptance. It means a lot to me. It's all I ever wanted.
For the record, I accept anyone regardless of whatever their views are, even if contrary to mine. I understand this is a big, complex world and people come from all walks of life with different backgrounds and perspectives, for different reasons, and that those perspectives will clash with others. But that's not a reason to reject decent people or ostracize them. I accept Nicole too. I just wish I wasn't being shunned. I've really tried to develop good will with people while still holding my own ground....in the end, it wasn't enough.
Post by Belteshazzar on Sept 26, 2013 9:34:02 GMT -5
Update: I tried to come back the other day on on the board on another screen name, but I was just banned again. They are really intent on shutting me out.
So, I guess that's that. I can't be on that board and actually represent who I am.
I had a plan to try and fight it, but....I'm really thinking it's not going to be worth my time and effort. As sad as that is.
I gotta say though, there are some really hypocritical people there who talk it up about "social progress" and being open minded and fair and free - who then suppress it when someone like me comes along. It's pretty sickening really. I think about it and on a psychological scale, I just want to vomit. People being okay with knowingly living such a double standard both disturbs me and really makes me nauseous.
Oh well. Goodbye to the community I've been a part of since 2000. I'll move on with my life. On the positive side....in ways, I do know it will be for my own personal betterment. I've got bigger and better things I want to do with my life that getting bogged down in such a negative community. Despite it being very sad, the good side of this is that it does free me. I spent too much time there anyway. And truth be told, the community isn't what it was in 2009 anyway. Activity over there has really gone downhill. Anyway....thanks again for your support guys. And I'll still be here at shadowland
I was reading about your speech about being free and double standards and this sign below appeared "have your forum free". I laughed, you speak of double standards! Sorry to destroy your illusions but nothing is free to be in a forum where we are surrounded by unwished adds!
It depends of your will to defend something Daniel. I don't say it harshly, it's just the truth. I don't believe it is staying up for your opinions if you chose to abandon something important in your life for what you feel some people's bad decisions. Do you really feel it wasn't a good decision and that all the community is threatened by a dishonest discourse? We could even say SP is threatened by double standard, right? If so, do the things you have to do or don't do them but don't criticize them. We can't struggle against everything but if you chose to do it, do it with all your heart and honestly.
I remember Saint-Renee who was underlining how it was double standard for members of the community during Occupy Wall Street movement being with angst toward the richer people and being in a website owned by one of them, buying his music and going to his shows. I remembered it yesterday when I read something published by Sierra Swan who I follow on FB. It was a good short video about the ideal of a good share of wealth by the population tested in USA, the perception of the reality and the reality. Honestly, I found that weird as she just come to have two weeks with William. I thought to ask her if she spoke of that with him but I didn't because probably she would have found it offending. I believe we are often doing that, the double standards. Not with a bad intention but just because we don't see it or we don't think at it. We have full of incoherencies in our life. We say something but act at the contrary.
If you had really abandoned SP Daniel, it wouldn't be there at the top of your website. Right? This website you created, I feel it was more by spite than by need. In reaction more than a real wish, with an idea of your own. You are less often here than your guests. You asked to invite people but you are doing nothing for the website. We (because I include myself in this too much usual comportment) can't honestly criticize others if our heart isn't really there. One of the things I said the first time you invited me year ago is that I didn't come because of these adds. And there I am, it's bothering me but I let it go. Double standards again.
What I want for you is that you have a clear and clean heart. I just ask you to be honest with yourself. If you still care for SP and do have the desire to be there in their forum and you honestly believe having receiving an unjust treatment, do what you have to do. And probably we even can be behind you. But the choice, the first choice is yours. Are you ready to take your life in hands. There is many, many more things to do if you really wish to be there. On the other side, if you honestly don't want it so much and you desire to remove SP of your heart, or just lukewarm is enough as love for them, it's alright too. But then, why do you invite others in your website if you don't care for us at your turn? What is your motivation to invite us?